Proformance Unlimited 390FE for #50: a complete disaster.

[DuckRyder]

Lets try to stay on topic. The "synthetic" discussion is nearly as bad as politics or religion... and it isn't really pertinent to roroys problem.

[r71f250]

Good afternoon! In my previous post I forgot to include the links to the live run videos of the Proformance Unlimited engine (taken at their shop):

Here's the one that was posted on their web site: Robroy_390.wmv

Here's the one I received on a CDR disc with the engine: Num50_390.wmv

Thanks very much for all the excellent advice!
Robroy

I did not pay any attention to I believe, one very important point to your engine eating the cam. In the video (2nd listed) that PU sent you with your engine, The builder (I forgot the name) only mentioned to you that you should use only 20w/50 motor oil for at least the 1st 500-1000 miles before using syn oil. He never mentioned modern oils (including SYN) lack the needed ZDDP to protect a flat tappet cam. It does not sound like PU used breakin oil or oil with ZDDP additive for the cam breakin. I would ask Steve in your email and any coorespondence what breakin in additive or oil did they use and why did they not make you aware of the ZDDP issue to protect your warranty (and cam) regardless if it has already expired. If I was that builder I would make using ZDDP additive or oil like Joe Gibbs 20w/50 manditory to insure the warranty. I think PU probably builds great engines and "may have" a good reputation but they made this grave error as well as others on your engine. I think the ZDDP issue should be one of the top issues with PU. Only my opinion and my $0.02....

Blessings,
Alan

[Alvin in AZ]

{PU}only mentioned to you that you should use only
20w/50 motor oil for at least the 1st 500-1000 miles...
Alan

It's my understanding that 50 weight motor oil is exempt from the "car oil" zinc limit.
Mobil makes a big deal about it on their website and brags on their Mobil-1's 15w-50 ZDDP content.

Am I...
Right?
Wrong?
Or in between?
...on that "50 weight business". ;)

Alvin in AZ

[eggman918]

Last night I thought about this problem from the shops point of view,and I am sure that they have had many properly built motors never survive due to the owners mistakes.so I can understand their cynicism,it seems they deal with hobbyists not professional racers ....so it is understandable.Robroy sounds sincere and intelligent to me ie: credible so a resolution to this issue is is possible and It should be desired by all party's . Having been on both sides of the fence, both machine shop employee and motor shop customer I hope an equitable solution is found.

[robroy]

Good morning Eggman918, Stephen, Robert, and Alan, thanks for your great replies!

my machining specialty for last 15 years has been industrial repair,a accurate postmortem IS possible.and SHOULD be desired by ALL involved.It could be much worse,it was an EXPENSIVE mistake
thank GOD that no one was hurt.when things fail it can have a lasting impact.And we all need to keep that in mind whenever we repair/modify anything

These are good points. That sounds like you have a lot of experience with things like this!

Unfortunately, a more extensive, deterministic post-mortem may not be possible, since the engine block and heads have already been re-machined. It may have been wiser for me to have asked FE Specialties to pause the effort until more could be determined about the engine, but there's no way to undo that now!

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

maybe this helps?

Thanks for that Stephen! I hadn't read about those topics before, so those were interesting.

Lets try to stay on topic. The "synthetic" discussion is nearly as bad as politics or religion... and it isn't really pertinent to roroys problem.

Though it's interesting, I think you're right that it would be better discussed in a separate thread. Thanks for the wise moderation!

I did not pay any attention to I believe, one very important point to your engine eating the cam. In the video (2nd listed) that PU sent you with your engine, The builder (I forgot the name) only mentioned to you that you should use only 20w/50 motor oil for at least the 1st 500-1000 miles before using syn oil. He never mentioned modern oils (including SYN) lack the needed ZDDP to protect a flat tappet cam. It does not sound like PU used breakin oil or oil with ZDDP additive for the cam breakin. I would ask Steve in your email and any coorespondence what breakin in additive or oil did they use and why did they not make you aware of the ZDDP issue to protect your warranty (and cam) regardless if it has already expired. If I was that builder I would make using ZDDP additive or oil like Joe Gibbs 20w/50 manditory to insure the warranty.

I see your point here--they definitely didn't mention using any ZDDP additives to me. As for whether or not they used ZDDP for the cam break-in, I could ask them about that, but regardless of whether their answer was "yes" or "no," I'm not sure if it would influence any decisions I need to make.

It could be interesting to bring this up all the same! Thanks for mentioning it Alan!

I think PU probably builds great engines and "may have" a good reputation but they made this grave error as well as others on your engine.

I agree with your point about them making great engines, despite my experience with this one. That's because it's simply hard for me to believe that things could be otherwise, based on the huge number of gleaming customer testimonials on their site! And as I remember, another FORDification forum member had a very positive experience buying from them.

As for the grave errors, I suspect that may be true, yet I'm not completely convinced regarding the extent of the errors. It seems like some of them are open to interpretation, such as the loose connecting rod bushing tolerances being that way on purpose, as an old fashioned performance engine building style. It's my unwavering intention to give Proformance Unlimited the benefit of the doubt on all issues where doubt exists!

I find the idea of letting genuine mistakes pass much more favorable than involvement in even the smallest of false justices--it sounds like that's a perspective you understand.

I think the ZDDP issue should be one of the top issues with PU. Only my opinion and my $0.02....

Perhaps you're right about this! My only reservation to pursuing this investigation is based on my uncertainty of how I'd use the results. If I heard that P.U. used the ZDDP additive, then what? And how about if I heard that they didn't use it? Furthermore, I don't mean to imply that they'd tell me an outright lie, but I'd imagine they'd have a strong motive to claim they used the ZDDP additive either way.

It's my understanding that 50 weight motor oil is exempt from the "car oil" zinc limit.
Mobil makes a big deal about it on their website and brags on their Mobil-1's 15w-50 ZDDP content.

Interesting! Perhaps you're right about this.

Last night I thought about this problem from the shops point of view, and I am sure that they have had many properly built motors never survive due to the owners mistakes.

True!

so I can understand their cynicism,it seems they deal with hobbyists not professional racers ....so it is understandable.

I know what you mean. I'm sure they hear all kinds of things back from customers who use their engines in unusual projects, or do funny engine repairs.

Robroy sounds sincere and intelligent to me ie: credible so a resolution to this issue is is possible and It should be desired by all party's . Having been on both sides of the fence, both machine shop employee and motor shop customer I hope an equitable solution is found.

Great statement! I agree with what you're saying here, and I definitely don't want to financially harm Proformance Unlimited by going overboard with my claims.

Status Update: It has been nearly three working days since my last letter to Proformance Unlimited, and I haven't heard anything back yet. I'll give them a call this week if I don't get any reply.

Eggman918, Stephen, Robert, and Alan, thanks again for your outstanding replies!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

Well, it's Friday, any news?

I always found the best day to call is Tuesday morning, that way you can call again on Wednesday to get some followup followed by Thursday. Most folks are overwhealmed Monday and leave early or forget Friday calls.

Jamie

[robroy]

Good evening Jamie, thanks for asking!

Well, it's Friday, any news?

Yes! After hearing nothing at all from Proformance Unlimited all this time, I finally called them today and spoke with Steve.

I heard from Steve that he had tried to contact me last week, but wasn't able to reach me. I'm not sure what communication method was attempted, because according to my cellular phone and e-mail it wasn't either of those. Perhaps my cellular phone failed to register an incoming call? I haven't had this sort of trouble with it in the past five years, although it's possible that people may be unable to reach me from time to time, and they never bother to tell me about it. Sound far fetched?

I asked about whether or not he'd gotten an updated offer from Doug or not, based on my last call with him. I heard that he showed the FE Specialties quote to Doug, and because FE Specialties is "building a 428" for me, Doug's not willing to increase his $1,000 offer.

So $1,000 is their final offer to me.

I thanked Steve and told him I'd get organized and get back to him.

I always found the best day to call is Tuesday morning, that way you can call again on Wednesday to get some followup followed by Thursday. Most folks are overwhealmed Monday and leave early or forget Friday calls.

That's a great tip--it makes sense to me! I'll try that method out from now on, at least when I have a choice as to when to call.

Thanks very much for your excellent reply Jamie!
Robroy

[Doug Comer]

1000.00 Best of luck to you Robroy

Doug

[fomocoguy]

Well, I suppose it's time to move to the next step. Sorry it wasn't as easy as it could have been. I think by the time it's all over they will wish they would have just refunded your money, but I had a feeling they would play hardball. I definetly thought you'd be offered more than $1000. What a joke...

[67mann]

1000.00 Best of luck to you Robroy

Doug

Get your chit together with the Lawyer,because the days of giving PU "benifit of a doubt" are over----no more Mr. Nice guy Pisses me off when the little guy get's chit on

[Ranchero50]

Robroy, another quick tip, 9:30-10am is great too, then 1:30-2:30. The first, they should be awake, the second they are falling asleep and need woken up.

Did you remind him that you weren't building a 428, just had to oversize the pistons to that next common size and were reusing a stock unbent 390 crank?

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

I think it is time to involve the better business bureau and a lawyer.

IMO, they are just taking advantage of your good nature.

[stephen44]

- I think it's time for the professionals to get involved - at least to give you advice as to what to do next - so you don't compromise your position.

Unfortunately for us - I think they will probably tell you to stop giving us all updates - so good luck !

Stephen

[Thunderfoot]

I think it is time to involve the better business bureau and a lawyer.

IMO, they are just taking advantage of your good nature.

X3

$1,000 doesn't even cover the parts / machine work that you were supposed to have gotten originally (rods, heads built right, etc...) let alone the break-in cam failure and oil pan issue...

I'm not a big fan of lawyers but I would use one when needed and this is a case of where one IS needed.

Good luck to you Robroy.

[basketcase0302]

Good luck to you Robroy.

Ditto!